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PrinceCharming
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:28 pm

The last chest gave Cleo to everyone.
So good luck with Fire Off.
I just saw a duel where Rakkans cleared dwarfs with their SUPER MEGA fire off with almost no loss.
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Behindtheed
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:54 pm

Lolix wrote:
Your assumption is inexact.
Currently on the 71+ merged server a number of players are using that formation both for duels and for siege with no or close to no losses.
The idea that 100% of players above 1 mil have Cleo is a little far fetched. I have seen many duels where she was not fielded so either they are choosing to not field a counter or they just don't have her which I find more likely.

If your assumption however is that all players at any remotely significant power have Cleo and Cleo does indeed counter fire off then this whole thread has no reason to exist.


Any player who has a chance of winning a duel in relevant situations (via out stating their opponents) have spent enough money to have Cleo, yes. If you are talking about random duels between free to play people , then it's hard to gauge what balance constitutes. Are you seeing this formation beat people with a full stat disadvantage off of tundra? Or is the player with more stats winning, per usual?

The most important factor in a duel is stats in 99% of cases. It's possible that the people who siege with rocket/swords happen to be the biggest spenders on stat cards and heroes, so dominate anyways in your situation.

Rockets w/ sword and turtle is not an ideal formation at the highest levels of PvP (where balance is usually decided) for the reason of turtle being worse than more heroes for stats, and cleo ult or grimms snipe shutting fire-off down utterly.

You can balance games for casual free to play or moderate spenders or whales and the results of that balance would look very different depending on your perspective...

My point is that anecdote from some random 1mill power guy who logs in three times a week, and duels someone with 800 more stats than him -then complains about his unit composition when he loses- is not relevant on the topic of balancing the game.
 
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:27 pm

These are duels between the highest ranked players in the two kingdoms who are at war currently.
Your statement about the highest spenders is probably correct. It is indeed those who seem to be the highest spenders that use this formation in this case. However they make it work despite the use of black hole in part of the duels and utilize the formation for both pvp and siege taking in most cases close to 0 losses. Would a formation that allows no losses and few injuries in most instances not be the optimal Formation?
These duels are also occurring off of tundra, on enemy territory and the outcome is still the same. Keep in mind that these duels are between the top 10 ranked players. The turtle is not the focal point though, it is the possibility of borrowing a full frontline of swords which is making the difference.

But we have gone off topic.

This is a thread about 'fire off' and this is the only formation which includes fire off which is being used at high levels. That is probably why it was mentioned. Discussing whether or not it is optimal is useless as replacing the bombardiers would make it redundant to the topic. It can only be concluded then that Fire off is the last of the relevant problems this game has.
 
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:55 am

PrinceCharming wrote:
The last chest gave Cleo to everyone.
So good luck with Fire Off.
I just saw a duel where Rakkans cleared dwarfs with their SUPER MEGA fire off with almost no loss.

this one? dwarf higher castle level
lin2lin.JPG
 
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PrinceCharming
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:03 am

tonzkie04 wrote:
PrinceCharming wrote:
The last chest gave Cleo to everyone.
So good luck with Fire Off.
I just saw a duel where Rakkans cleared dwarfs with their SUPER MEGA fire off with almost no loss.

this one? dwarf higher castle level
lin2lin.JPG

Yeah, but not only this. This I also watched, but! looking at the battle statistics after replay - unfortunately the dwarf player was very weak and had no chances to win. Weak heroes with bad stats. Silver troops in pvp = wasted space = less stats = lose in stats battle.
Cleo used the ultimate Black Hole at the start (it has no cooldown when started) and minimized bombardiers' damage.

And we again are coming to stats difference (30% HP damage speed magic) that affects duels; friendly land (because Tundra is located on the edges of the map, the rest of the map gives bonuses to all other races, and most map areas are good for pvp for everyone but dwarfs); Cleo countering the main dps of dwarfs easily.

Fire Off is the least of the problems.
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beadmu
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:30 am

Lolix wrote:
These are duels between the highest ranked players in the two kingdoms who are at war currently.
Your statement about the highest spenders is probably correct. It is indeed those who seem to be the highest spenders that use this formation in this case. However they make it work despite the use of black hole in part of the duels and utilize the formation for both pvp and siege taking in most cases close to 0 losses. Would a formation that allows no losses and few injuries in most instances not be the optimal Formation?
These duels are also occurring off of tundra, on enemy territory and the outcome is still the same. Keep in mind that these duels are between the top 10 ranked players. The turtle is not the focal point though, it is the possibility of borrowing a full frontline of swords which is making the difference.

But we have gone off topic.

This is a thread about 'fire off' and this is the only formation which includes fire off which is being used at high levels. That is probably why it was mentioned. Discussing whether or not it is optimal is useless as replacing the bombardiers would make it redundant to the topic. It can only be concluded then that Fire off is the last of the relevant problems this game has.



Lolix, you are correct. I have one of my main accounts in that merged server group (70-80++) and the players using the tactic being discussed are ones at the top of the food chain. I think Behindthead thinks our are observations are exaggerated but we are not (we're not noobs, bro). All these top players/spenders have Cleo.

Prince Charming you are right with your observations, that screenshot is a not a good example of what is being talked about here. Regarding getting Cleo to counter the formation, not a chance. Unfortunately, as Lolix and I have stated many times. black hole is not powerful enough to counteract Fire Off in that situation.

This is a good exchange. I've changed my mind about nerfing Fire Off even. The game's troop loaning mechanics may be the better area the devs should look into.
 
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PrinceCharming
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:20 am

beadmu wrote:
Lolix wrote:

This is a good exchange. I've changed my mind about nerfing Fire Off even. The game's troop loaning mechanics may be the better area the devs should look into.


I already talked so much about spoiled mechanics of loan ability. Especially when there are contests for "who beats 10 star level faster and first".
Devs call it as the possibility of low level players to have a chance to compete with high levels on contest leaderboards.
:)
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neuro
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:52 pm

The problem is not the rockets, it's the void. The heroes evolve faster than the investigation of the troops. A gold defense has more power than the attacker's troops, but the attacker's troops are stronger than the defensive troops, otherwise it would not be possible to destroy any wall ... Nowadays it is possible to destroy any defense. To kill a lich, you just have to use rockets and gold mechs. The developments of the company, have only thought about the attacks made by players at the individual level and not in the collective attacks where troops are lent.
 
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:58 pm

Image
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Behindtheed
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Re: Cheat bombarders ability open fire.

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:12 pm

beadmu wrote:
Lolix, you are correct. I have one of my main accounts in that merged server group (70-80++) and the players using the tactic being discussed are ones at the top of the food chain. I think Behindthead thinks our are observations are exaggerated but we are not (we're not noobs, bro). All these top players/spenders have Cleo.


It's not about exaggerated observations, but incomplete ones. Units matter far less than stats. Is the person with stats winning everytime?

Terrain bonus also matters a lot for dwarves. Most of the map is grassland, so most human fights happen with +20% research. When they go to tundra, it becomes -20% their normal bonus, and +20% dwarf. So it's a 40% spread.

The question is, are rockets winning fights vs opponents with superior stats, on neutral or grassland terrain? If that's the case, you can have a discussion about it. If not, it probably doesn't matter what units are put in formation if you win the stat war.


If we're talking about garrison attacking, it's a no brainer rockets/turtle/swords are often the most powerful option. But for duels? Simply not the case.

+30% stat bonuses is more powerful than lvl 12->13, or silver to gold in most cases. So the data just isn't pertinent unless you are seeing battles with both stat advantage, and disadvantage of the same compositions winning - or equality.

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