Are Dwarves Obsolete?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:03 am

Yes
10 (71%)
No
4 (29%)
 
Total votes: 14
 
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Aluminara
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Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:58 am

Most people would say Dwarves are best at sieging. But with the new change to Grimms ability affecting all siege weapons, is that still true? Are rocketeers that much more powerful as say, Archers? I have done some small testing with the new system and don't see a major difference, due to the length of the fight (ammo) and catapults destroying units on the wall.
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Freezee
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:59 am

Your video is set to private otherwise I'd love to see your testing. I'm not sure obsolete is the right word but severely underpowered and far too niche would probably work better. I think there is a relatively simple way to fix them and it all lies on their mech units dying forever.

IMO anything have no chance of injury is a horrible mechanic. It's basically guaranteeing your fate. I feel as though the decs feel similarly considering the recent changes to the undead having a base 30% chance of reviving as well as the skills that allow you to revive undead in combat and survivors stay in your army. So how do we do something similar while keeping to the theme of dwarves? Well first let's see what the theme is by starting with what it's not.

Dwarves are not humans, they are not able to be revived all of the time consistently, they do not do consistent damage, they do not have fairly simple and boring abilities.

Dwarves are not the lich, they are not cheap, they are not plentiful, you do not sacrifice them or even consider doing so. They do not overwelm in numbers.

Dwarves are power. They are small, few, yet strong and entirely based on burst damage. They are expensive but well worth it. They siege well, they live long, but they die horribly and there is no coming back.

So I know what you're thinking, "get to the point". Ok here it is. Human are consistency so they almost exclusively are able to be revived. Lich are numerous and cheap so they die, resurrect, die again and potentially even redirect again. Dwarves are strong and expensive, so giving them revives would be borderline op, however if the lich can do it the dwarves can too. So my thought is to make them repairable. Whether it's a new menu or a new building to level all mechs would now be able to be repaired, for a price. So on my server I just started over on to alt dwarves my tier III silver mechs cost 17 mithril and 256 gold, one dies and I pay that same price if I want another. But if there were a chance (should be 50% or higher in my opinion based of race themes but hey, that just my opinion) for them to not die but rather be broken down then you would have to pay to fix them. So in theory it would only cost 8 mithril and 122 gold to fix that mech. So if I go in and lose 5 mechs (a full unit) and 3 are broken rather than dead I save resources making them slightly more powerful overall with tilting the balance of pvp.

These are my thoughts, sorry for rambling, I love opinions both similar or different from mine so let me have it.
 
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Aluminara
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:21 am

The video was just the catapults, not my testing. Everything you said is a reason not to pick them. Now because Human and Lich can siege just as well as them is my thoughts of why both reasons combined make them obsolete/not worth picking.
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doudoudildo
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 am

have you ever fight a lich scorpion/spider with dwarves ? Where are weak and cheap lichs and strong dwarves ?
You lose...and even if you managed to win the fight it would cost you twice more resources than him.

They may win a human with tank strat but if you lose with tanks....you cry, so is that really a worth one ? After first fight where you lose 1/5 of mechas, what do you do, you fight with technicians ? So you are not reliable on battles.

They don't really outdamage humans when facing a wall

They are better at pillaging though...ok, but if you could share this pillage with team mate, you would have a role in a team. If this pillage is just used to restore your army...what's the point ?
I won't even speak about your garrison, where are strong dwarves holdfasts when you have the weaker garrison ever ? Dwarves may use tanks and mechs in garrison ?...lol that seem such a nice long term strategy :p

The fact is that, now dwarves are really bad at most things and not really better at any.

If you are the big whale of your server, may consider go dwarves, your mechs will be unkillable. If you have the average lvl of your server, just...pillage, play alone and once a day you may be able to deal once with a garrison for your team, otherwise you will have no use in a team.
 
Parugeon
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:04 am

Freezee wrote:
Your video is set to private otherwise I'd love to see your testing. I'm not sure obsolete is the right word but severely underpowered and far too niche would probably work better. I think there is a relatively simple way to fix them and it all lies on their mech units dying forever.

IMO anything have no chance of injury is a horrible mechanic. It's basically guaranteeing your fate. I feel as though the decs feel similarly considering the recent changes to the undead having a base 30% chance of reviving as well as the skills that allow you to revive undead in combat and survivors stay in your army. So how do we do something similar while keeping to the theme of dwarves? Well first let's see what the theme is by starting with what it's not.

Dwarves are not humans, they are not able to be revived all of the time consistently, they do not do consistent damage, they do not have fairly simple and boring abilities.

Dwarves are not the lich, they are not cheap, they are not plentiful, you do not sacrifice them or even consider doing so. They do not overwelm in numbers.

Dwarves are power. They are small, few, yet strong and entirely based on burst damage. They are expensive but well worth it. They siege well, they live long, but they die horribly and there is no coming back.

So I know what you're thinking, "get to the point". Ok here it is. Human are consistency so they almost exclusively are able to be revived. Lich are numerous and cheap so they die, resurrect, die again and potentially even redirect again. Dwarves are strong and expensive, so giving them revives would be borderline op, however if the lich can do it the dwarves can too. So my thought is to make them repairable. Whether it's a new menu or a new building to level all mechs would now be able to be repaired, for a price. So on my server I just started over on to alt dwarves my tier III silver mechs cost 17 mithril and 256 gold, one dies and I pay that same price if I want another. But if there were a chance (should be 50% or higher in my opinion based of race themes but hey, that just my opinion) for them to not die but rather be broken down then you would have to pay to fix them. So in theory it would only cost 8 mithril and 122 gold to fix that mech. So if I go in and lose 5 mechs (a full unit) and 3 are broken rather than dead I save resources making them slightly more powerful overall with tilting the balance of pvp.

These are my thoughts, sorry for rambling, I love opinions both similar or different from mine so let me have it.



Not rambling at all and until recently I didnt understand much of the issues dwarf players had. Now that I have played all 3 races to high levels I must say I am really frustrated with the whole concept people have lich being cheap and plentiful and dwarfs being exspensive but tough..... yes they are hella exspensive but they are even if not underwhelming compaired to their counter parts. I have added posts to suggestions asking for a new building called Salvage Yard where mechs could be revived. In reality a perk of being dwarf should be that all their mechanical could be healed inc catapults and that very act alone would bring them into line and closer to their actual race description.

Until this update I suggested similar for lich undead units but with Gaz's new skill think they have fixed that worry.
 
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Aluminara
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:40 am

Parugeon wrote:
Until this update I suggested similar for lich undead units but with Gaz's new skill think they have fixed that worry.


You think skeletons are viable now? Sure you kept the units that mummies rez, IF they survive. And from PvE I walk away with 3 units. I am sure if you had a full skeleton army you would lose more than that in a fight. Gazuls rez fails all the time when trying to get level 4+ silvers (Have tried 10 times) on a level 4 rez. Also the 30% are only for skeletons that are in your garrison. So I still dont believe it is. I have a post talking about this. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13082
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Parugeon
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:58 am

Aluminara wrote:
Parugeon wrote:
Until this update I suggested similar for lich undead units but with Gaz's new skill think they have fixed that worry.


You think skeletons are viable now? Sure you kept the units that mummies rez, IF they survive. And from PvE I walk away with 3 units. I am sure if you had a full skeleton army you would lose more than that in a fight. Gazuls rez fails all the time when trying to get level 4+ silvers (Have tried 10 times) on a level 4 rez. Also the 30% are only for skeletons that are in your garrison. So I still dont believe it is. I have a post talking about this. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13082


I actually haven't tryed his new ability myself but have seen a few screen shots of house chat where a number of people have collected a number of units. I would honestly prefer the Graveyard building for lich giving all 3 races the same ability to have their resources spared by the ability to heal their races troops. I dont however see that happining though as lich has the spider scorp combo which is effortlessly the most consistant attack combo in game and personally my favorite.
 
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Apollyon
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:30 pm

It's not that dwarves are obsolete, just that lich is OP. Their main formation consists of scorpions, which are inherently anti-dwarf and spiders, which are inherently anti-human, so they have the upper hand either way. Not to mention that both are inherently reistant to alternative damage types and AoE effects/damage by virtue of being large low unit count squads instead of high count low cost
like human.

Edit: I had written spiders twice, changed one to scorps
Last edited by Apollyon on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Freezee
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:34 pm

Apollyon wrote:
It's not that dwarves are obsolete, just that lich is OP. Their main formation consists of spiders, which are inherently anti-dwarf and spiders, which are inherently anti-human, so they have the upper hand either way.


This is very true. But when having this mentality th answer comes down to a nerf which tends to either be overdone or blows up as if it was. The better of the two options is to buff the other races to give them the ability to compete. The mech ho buff was ok but them still dying will forever keep them weak, but making them able to be rebuilt essentially as well as any other mech unit as a dwarf you bring them back in line with the other races as well as put them back on top as the number one siege race.
 
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Re: Are Dwarves obsolete?

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:43 pm

Dwarfs definitely need some sort of mechanic to offset the perms death of their best units, as well as a redo of the ammunition system. But in terms of actual tactical battlefield strengts i think incremental nerfs are the better choice than pure buffs. That prevents an arms race of constant catching up.

Edit: To add something relating to dwarves ideas, how about make it so when a unit runs out of ammo instead of lowering attack speed it causes them to switch to an alternate form of attack? Riflemen can switch to melee bayonettes and tanks can charge into the enemy dealing massive damage to both?

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