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Sargon
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What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:09 am

Simple and straight forward. Why exactly are a majority of dwarf and lich units absolute trash purely because they permanently die? This adds literally nothing to the game, and just restricts the unit options of two of the three races. Nobody can afford to lose thousands of rare resources in a duel or in a siege. Not only is it just plain nonsense, it actually makes no sense that you can't repair mechs, but can heal slaughtered humanoids. On top of that, lich literally have units (mummies) that resurrect dead humanoids as undead, but they can't revive a defeated undead unit? It makes absolutely no sense from a lore standpoint and absolutely no sense from a "did you put any thought into this at all, Devs?" standpoint.

The best part of all of this is that lich probably wouldn't even use anything other than scorp spider anyway, yet the devs refuse to give injury to undead and mechs as if it would somehow be overpowered.
 
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ArtemisQuinn
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:30 am

If I had to take a shot in the dark about that. It is a balance issue. They make other races have perma death because they are so much stronger than human units. Granted the rate of perma death is pretty nuts for other races, and can make playing them a pain for anyone who does not poor tons of money onto their game.

With dwarfs simply having a repair factory that works something like the human hospital is a decent solution. Where it costs a certain number of basic resources to repair units that fall in battle. With litch the same thing would apply just have it be a summoning or some sort of dark magic non-sense. Where again it takes maybe elixir and time to revive undead units.

Either way I would agree the mortality rate of units needs to be delt with. However then you also need to balance that with a power balance on those units. Making them less powerful but also able to revive at a decent rate, less than humans since that seems to be their specialty. Just make it cost something more than simply time like human units.
 
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Dazed
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:56 pm

Its all geared around the 'moral' system. Human troops run away instead of fighting til the end, where the other races all stand and fight til death or destruction. If u give them heal/ repair then u need remove the moral system and have all units stand and fight to the death or give everything moral ... machines and undead with moral doesnt make much sense...
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:37 pm

Dazed wrote:
Its all geared around the 'moral' system. Human troops run away instead of fighting til the end, where the other races all stand and fight til death or destruction. If u give them heal/ repair then u need remove the moral system and have all units stand and fight to the death or give everything moral ... machines and undead with moral doesnt make much sense...


Could just make them slightly weaker. They also don't get moral boosts.

I would really like to see it removed, 40% of the dwarf/undead units just don't see play because of this.
 
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Sargon
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:02 pm

Dazed wrote:
Its all geared around the 'moral' system. Human troops run away instead of fighting til the end, where the other races all stand and fight til death or destruction. If u give them heal/ repair then u need remove the moral system and have all units stand and fight to the death or give everything moral ... machines and undead with moral doesnt make much sense...


I think you're missing the full point though. The absolute best lich units are scorps and spiders, and that would not change even with a buff to undead injury. They don't have morale, and get injured the same as humans. You have to look at morale as a double edged sword since a single hero death can chain morale boost a human army to victory.

My point is that the mech and undead units are already not that great, and the fact that they perma death makes them unusable garbage. Some poor dwarf dueled me recently and i probably set him back a month in dead gold mechs and tanks. its such a huge downside that it makes them the worst units in the game, so we clearly haven't reached a point of balance.
 
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Dazed
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:13 am

Sargon wrote:
Dazed wrote:
Its all geared around the 'moral' system. Human troops run away instead of fighting til the end, where the other races all stand and fight til death or destruction. If u give them heal/ repair then u need remove the moral system and have all units stand and fight to the death or give everything moral ... machines and undead with moral doesnt make much sense...


I think you're missing the full point though. The absolute best lich units are scorps and spiders, and that would not change even with a buff to undead injury. They don't have morale, and get injured the same as humans. You have to look at morale as a double edged sword since a single hero death can chain morale boost a human army to victory.

My point is that the mech and undead units are already not that great, and the fact that they perma death makes them unusable garbage. Some poor dwarf dueled me recently and i probably set him back a month in dead gold mechs and tanks. its such a huge downside that it makes them the worst units in the game, so we clearly haven't reached a point of balance.


The mechs got AOE attacks , immune to poison, moral etc. They are super powerful with the right army backing them up. Same with the lich units, everything is getting a bonus of some kind, magic resistance, extra wall plunder , decrease moral with each attack etc etc. There is strategy to how you loadout and how much dps u need behind ur units to make them viable. If ur using expensive gold troops on ur front lines then u should expect losses. So u want super powerful units with all those bonuses and heal / repair ?? lmao u cant have ur cake and eat it too bro. Stick with ya all in spider build like the rest the noobs...
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dorianGREY
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:38 am

Dazed wrote:
Sargon wrote:
Dazed wrote:
Its all geared around the 'moral' system. Human troops run away instead of fighting til the end, where the other races all stand and fight til death or destruction. If u give them heal/ repair then u need remove the moral system and have all units stand and fight to the death or give everything moral ... machines and undead with moral doesnt make much sense...


I think you're missing the full point though. The absolute best lich units are scorps and spiders, and that would not change even with a buff to undead injury. They don't have morale, and get injured the same as humans. You have to look at morale as a double edged sword since a single hero death can chain morale boost a human army to victory.

My point is that the mech and undead units are already not that great, and the fact that they perma death makes them unusable garbage. Some poor dwarf dueled me recently and i probably set him back a month in dead gold mechs and tanks. its such a huge downside that it makes them the worst units in the game, so we clearly haven't reached a point of balance.


The mechs got AOE attacks , immune to poison, moral etc. They are super powerful with the right army backing them up. Same with the lich units, everything is getting a bonus of some kind, magic resistance, extra wall plunder , decrease moral with each attack etc etc. There is strategy to how you loadout and how much dps u need behind ur units to make them viable. If ur using expensive gold troops on ur front lines then u should expect losses. So u want super powerful units with all those bonuses and heal / repair ?? lmao u cant have ur cake and eat it too bro. Stick with ya all in spider build like the rest the noobs...


While this is true dazed, the absolute and sheer frustration of playing a dwarf, and losing a fight stupidly like I did to leo on your server, is insane. Yes I get risk reward but the balance of it is so utterly silly in the state of the game that it crushes those who wish to play a race, which is my favourite currently. The balancing of a mech shop as there was for resurrection on undead garrisons etc, would make the dwarf be just as diverse but also playable without the wiped once and you are out gameplay it is now. (or whale hard such as NGO on our server)

The repair mechanics could work like the undead, they only get a small % repairable mechs after battle depending on the workshop level and perhaps castle level or building level of mechs. This would allow dwarves to scale into late game, especially with the human bishops running round losing 3 gold units in enemy territories because of ridiculous injury scales with humans now.
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Dazed
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:12 am

I cant help but feel for ya in those high lvl pvp's. Like months of work go down the toilet in 1 battle , doesnt seem right. But at the same time they cant extend all those buffs and bonuses to those troops without some kinda downside or every1 will be using them. Perhaps a small % mech repair shop is needed similar to the undead walls but they cant go nuts with it or human will be a thing of the past.
As for the injury % tactics we using , yea its pretty broken tbh, but like we lost 1/2 our kingdom when those mergers came out. The resources are scarce so its now a game of attrition rather than allowing u the luxury of wipe-rebuild, especially at high lvl.
As it stands atm its not fair to lose everything in 1 fight but there needs to be a trade off with the buffs and bonuses. The entire moral / perma death / injury system needs to be addressed B4 they layer in more races ontop of the already not working system.
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Sargon
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:36 am

Dazed wrote:
Sargon wrote:
Dazed wrote:
Its all geared around the 'moral' system. Human troops run away instead of fighting til the end, where the other races all stand and fight til death or destruction. If u give them heal/ repair then u need remove the moral system and have all units stand and fight to the death or give everything moral ... machines and undead with moral doesnt make much sense...


I think you're missing the full point though. The absolute best lich units are scorps and spiders, and that would not change even with a buff to undead injury. They don't have morale, and get injured the same as humans. You have to look at morale as a double edged sword since a single hero death can chain morale boost a human army to victory.

My point is that the mech and undead units are already not that great, and the fact that they perma death makes them unusable garbage. Some poor dwarf dueled me recently and i probably set him back a month in dead gold mechs and tanks. its such a huge downside that it makes them the worst units in the game, so we clearly haven't reached a point of balance.


The mechs got AOE attacks , immune to poison, moral etc. They are super powerful with the right army backing them up. Same with the lich units, everything is getting a bonus of some kind, magic resistance, extra wall plunder , decrease moral with each attack etc etc. There is strategy to how you loadout and how much dps u need behind ur units to make them viable. If ur using expensive gold troops on ur front lines then u should expect losses. So u want super powerful units with all those bonuses and heal / repair ?? lmao u cant have ur cake and eat it too bro. Stick with ya all in spider build like the rest the noobs...


Clearly you didn't actually comprehend what I wrote. I do have my cake and eat it too. Its call scorps and spiders which are lich + living units. scorp spider is the best unit composition in the game for pvp and pve. The only downside is for sieging and im getting free undead from my mummies to loot walls after i clear the garrison anyway. The undead units would be trash even if they had normal human injury rates, but they are just turbo trash instead with injury. I don't know where you get the idea that they are super powerful units that are offset by perma death. They aren't. They are supposed to cost less to off set the cost of death but they cost maybe 25% less, which makes them unplayable.

My point is that perma death is such a ridiculously bad trait to have that it makes the units unplayable, especially the gold versions. You know damn well that nobody can afford to lose a 1k+ rare resource gold unit in a duel, especially with Jaques the way he is. Oh you like your gold tank? Watch me bronze your ass and destroy it with one Jaques ability. Like do you actually believe that mechs and undead should have no injury mechanic or are you just being obnoxious and inconsistent in your posts?
 
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Dazed
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Re: What is the purpose of permanent death on undead and mechs?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:45 am

sorry bro but tryin to attack me cause i pointed out the 'actual' game mechanics isnt helping anybody. Those units are getting bonuses and buffs where the human units do not. There has to b a trade off or human will not be used. If u read the post above this is clearly stated and the rework of the entire system needs to be addressed. As for ya mass spider build it is far from the best pvp pve build, infact i would say its terrible and using 0 thought process of maximizing ur dps , ur just relying on delay with spiderlings into attrition which doesnt work against mass horse heal. Might be time to have a rethink instead of whinging then attacking ppl that are pointing out the obvious game mechanics.
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