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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:04 am

tofuu wrote:
It's actually very hard to snipe avalon or elena because they move with troops. By the time you summon shit, i would have killed half your troops. Your first skill is always Vega Alt and sometimes second may not be summon. If you summon first, you already lost the battle.

Jacque is strong early game, but all 3 energy hero are strong, even bane if you use him correctly.


It is usually very easy to snipe heroes in the beginning as long as they don't put them opposite side of where you put your heroes. And sure rose/bane can be very strong but not as strong as slaughtering a gold garrison just because you fielded them. Besides Vega favor is good yes but if you sword summon first and they kill a hero (very very likely to kill one fast as human) then the resulting cascade morale triggers on the 2-3 packs of summoned swords cause them to slaughter any back line in the area which is huge. Sure summon first is not always the answer but when you know for a fact they are going vega favor first and you can summon swords on her? That's game right there it's almost impossible to recover from that.

And that thing with "summon shit i would have killed half of your troops." That's a bunch of bs if you cant get atleast sword summon out in a duel you are probably afk or you disconnected, besides its actually pretty easy to snipe avalon/elena since there is a circle where you target where you want to summon them if you put the enemy elena/avalon in the center of it they will die within seconds since they spawn on top and around everywhere on that circle.

Try playing without using vega favor first and you'll find its actually quite strong sure favor is strong in itself but if they are summoning +1 tier of front line units on your back line and you don't support it that entire portion of your army is dead, it's way easier to kill/delay melee units then it is ranged units in this game by miles. Say your front dies but you kill a vast majority of their archers/priests all you have to do is use avril and wall them off and you win its such a joke.
 
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tofuu
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:23 am

My field power is 125k, trust all my battle ends before favor runs out which is 30 seconds, if you are summoning first you are still way too early in the game. Try to get a 80 magic Vega first.
 
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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:11 am

tofuu wrote:
My field power is 125k, trust all my battle ends before favor runs out which is 30 seconds, if you are summoning first you are still way too early in the game. Try to get a 80 magic Vega first.


Maybe if you make it that far I have a 60ish mag vega at t8 units and yeah it's pretty good but all the servers i've been on have had whales kill them or everyone quits due to resource drought/getting their entire gold garrison wiped by jacques so I would very much rather have a better transition to end game than what is currently happening. There are a couple other problems in the game but when new players get dueled/get attacked and get completely wiped by a jacques player dropping bronze on the same tier with ravagers for sac it's extremely frustrating and pretty heartbreaking for them especially since they don't know what they did wrong. I've talked to a few people after they got their 4gold/rest silver garrison wiped by jacques and they have no idea what to do against it and neither do I its absurd when a game like this has very minimal risk and clears the best parts of your garrison for free thats so disheartening whats worse is there is nothing you can do. Sure late game its fine and the meta shifts but most of the time the a lot of the servers population rather would go to another server once they get close to castle 20-24 part of the problem is how dominant jacques is because the people that have played a couple servers know if you get him early you can 1) duel anyone and come out on technically winning, 2) Not care about any defenses the person has, and 3) He can solo so much early on saving energy on your other heroes so they can get you more resources by pve/pillaging. I mean just for shits and giggles a person from my house tested how far he can solo with only Jacques and he soloed tactics straight up to 2-13. Like really? A single hero with no units clearing that far by itself is okay? I don't think so not even remotely close. Keep in mind he did this on ptr with a few of the new hero boxes but still his power is way way way too high for early/mid game.
 
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tofuu
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:14 am

Level 8 gold isn't strong and you never use swordman or pikeman in garrison. Those are extremely weak to Jacque. Yes if you p2w and get like 80 might, you destroy these weak sauce 24 group units. A buffed level 10 gold knight has around 75kHP.try burst those down.
 
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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:17 am

Still your answer is "wait till castle 30 to counter jacques"? That's absurd

Also gold swords at that tier would be vastly better to counter jacques due to their synergy with auras + 50% ranged damage reduction. Horses flop against ranged damage even with their high hp pool.
 
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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:40 am

Just to throw some numbers in to back up not using gold horses if you want to soak/kill jacques
Gold swords t8 7200 base hp so assuming you have double 19% auras for hp and hp/dmg you have 38% extra hp before command is factored in which turns to 9936 hp then since you also have 50% ranged it turns into 14904 hp per swordsmen. Since there is 24 of them x24 you get 357 696 hp in total that Jacques has to cut through to kill the pack since they ignore morale loss its 100% effective hp and causes heals on them to be 50% better technically due to the damage reduction.

Whereas horses have 27 000 hp base with auras (being nice giving elena aura also to keep it all even) turns to 37 260 hp/horse x6 = 223 560.

TL:DR 357 696 >> 223 560 hp swords are vastly better tanking and killing Jacques, this gap only grows the further down you go in the research tree. Swords are no longer the "weak sauce" 24 group units they have hyper scaling late game with all the damage reduction they get horses are only used more because they cost blood diamonds and those are generally the least used resources which makes them the easiest to replace. So please don't bring up "weak" units against jacques when you aren't realizing how mechanics work together the only saving grace gold cavs have is they run faster and can get full effect of their squad when they swarm a single target faster.
 
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Hiems
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:43 am

tofuu wrote:
My field power is 125k, trust all my battle ends before favor runs out which is 30 seconds, if you are summoning first you are still way too early in the game. Try to get a 80 magic Vega first.


The most impressive thing is that you still have duels at this point lol

You're truly a warrior and deserves a trophy for you patience and dedication, because I play this game since it started and never got past the 20~24 mark. After this mark the server is already dead or/and things gets way too static for my tastes, and for the tastes of most people I know and play with me. One of the reasons it happens is because of overpowered heroes with no counterplay at all, the same that applied to Cleo before, apply to Jacques now (we didn't have too many overbuffed Jacques before and at some extent Cleo was better). As others above already said, there's no point at arguing about such a late game when a hero can break the entirely early-mid by himself and make half the server quit before we reach it.
 
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dorianGREY
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:30 am

Hiems wrote:
tofuu wrote:
My field power is 125k, trust all my battle ends before favor runs out which is 30 seconds, if you are summoning first you are still way too early in the game. Try to get a 80 magic Vega first.


The most impressive thing is that you still have duels at this point lol

You're truly a warrior and deserves a trophy for you patience and dedication, because I play this game since it started and never got past the 20~24 mark. After this mark the server is already dead or/and things gets way too static for my tastes, and for the tastes of most people I know and play with me. One of the reasons it happens is because of overpowered heroes with no counterplay at all, the same that applied to Cleo before, apply to Jacques now (we didn't have too many overbuffed Jacques before and at some extent Cleo was better). As others above already said, there's no point at arguing about such a late game when a hero can break the entirely early-mid by himself and make half the server quit before we reach it.


This here is correct. The guy talking about fielding a 125k army is talking for 1% of the community and as usual, being a giant bigoted douche about his power level and how cool that makes him for being able to try different things.

80% of this game gets owned by jaques simply for jaques being too strong compared to other heroes. They killed cleo almost entirely, yet they have not even looked into nerfing something of jaques. I am all for late game strategy and am also I think good enough at this game myself to understand he can be countered in areas by certain things, but compared to the other easy mode power moves (spooder/scorps, vega/viron) its no where near as easy to counter or play against.
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Bombplayer2Jr
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:24 pm

+ *bumped
 
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Zinek
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:50 pm

Kryton13 wrote:
Fair play - i respect that position. Jacques really does need a balance pass - personally i hope they dont mess with his mech support skill and just gut his damaging powers.

I just get a bit frustrated when i see the devs improving the game and making good changes and yet people still complain en mass to them, its like they can't win.


His mech support skill only affects jacques himself btw.
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

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