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Fawksito
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:57 pm

Kryton13 wrote:
Daboo wrote:
playing as dwarf means that you have to calculate the possible cost of recovery, in time and in rare resource, everytime you duel someone even in your own territory. that i can happily accept. dwarves need to choose their enemies very carefully, when dueling and when sieging. there shouldn't be any impulse battle (though it could be frustrating when you have to retreat from someone dueling you for the cart you're escorting in your territory). one miscalculation and it will cost you tens of carts of rare resource to replace what you have lost. (i still remember the first time i lost my gold tank in a siege battle). i can live with that.

but defense is not something you have much control over. you cannot control what to deploy when defending. you cannot even control whether to defend or not. it's a battle not of your choice but of other people's. unlike dueling, where you can totally avoid and still enjoy the game if you choose to, defending your wall is an integrated part of the game. you could keep your resource as low as possible. you could build a high wall. you could fill your garrison. but once some whale choose to knock on your door, you're doomed, for weeks. now i'm not saying that mechs should be healable like other troops. it's ok that dwarves are bad at defending. but the cost of recovery from a siege shouldn't be this high when comparing with human and lich. tier 5 upgrade for horseman and scorp is a reduction of an extra 40% of time in the hospital when in garrison duty. what is the mech equivalent of that? a reduction of 20% gold in production? how often are you short on gold? how can the two be even compared?

having said all that. i don't think we'll get any buff anytime soon especially when we've already received a buff in the august patch. i guess the only solution is to mix race and get some horsemen and scorps on your wall?


I can understand and partially agree with this. Defence is certainly a tricky issue. My solution is that i have a human friend and he builds spearmen for his garrison and i just build riflemen and we both defend each other - the game logic puts both our units together and we both get the research bonuses. I know people say that human archers are the best wall defence in the game - but silver and gold dwarf riflemen are actually super nasty.


As lich defending is hard too, till you drop some gold spiders and your human friend drop some archers and priests, then its just game
BOOM
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:17 pm

that's true. lich is in the totally opposite position when comparing to dwarf in defending. dwarf has excellent snipers on the wall but has difficulty maintaining the frontline. lich has wonderful ground troops but lacks viable range units on the wall. i would argue that it's a more vital problem for dwarf but just because of my love for the race =)

cross defending seems like the optimal solution to our problem. too bad i also have to defend weaker players in my city.
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:32 am

Honestly, I didn't have the intention to make it as a buff. The skill that I proposed goes hand-in-hand with mech units drawback of "cannot-be-injured".. However, the more I think about it the more I can see how it can be viewed as a buff.

The principle behind Collective Shield is : if you want to take down a mech unit, you need to take down the whole troop. I said "take down", but I really meant "destroy" coz mech units cannot be revived, repaired, salvaged, etc. Notice that all mech units are 1 unit per troop except Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech.

Comment about siege : dwarf is only good for plundering empty walls, not breaking garrison troop.
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:34 am

FBSM wrote:
Honestly, I didn't have the intention to make it as a buff. The skill that I proposed goes hand-in-hand with mech units drawback of "cannot-be-injured".. However, the more I think about it the more I can see how it can be viewed as a buff.

The principle behind Collective Shield is : if you want to take down a mech unit, you need to take down the whole troop. I said "take down", but I really meant "destroy" coz mech units cannot be revived, repaired, salvaged, etc. Notice that all mech units are 1 unit per troop except Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech.

Comment about siege : dwarf is only good for plundering empty walls, not breaking garrison troop.


I actually think that dwarf is the best for breaking a garrison - mechs are one of the few front line units that can survive any time at all against gold archers that are on walls - even though the cost for losing them is nasty. Within a week i am going to be breaking (hopefully) the base of a lvl 31 human that is reinforced by another lvl 29 and is full of gold units - i'll post the results on here - i am willing to admit that i might be wrong.

The collective shield idea for the mechs is a very cool idea but legit it would be a massive buff - in order to kill any mechs you have to destroy the health pool of all of them whereas at the moment i rarely lose any mechs at all and when i do it is only 1 or 2.
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Player Name: 'Kryton13'
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:33 pm

I can't wait for the result :)

I didnt see it as a buff because even right now, you need to break the entire troop of mech before reaching the backline troop. So essentially, you'll be breaking the same amoint of HP the entire mech troop has (btw I said troop, not all mech in the battlefield). The only difference will be the damage output the mech is making to your frontline, which is pretty small
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:11 am

@Kryton13 I'm still waiting for the result. Not a challenge, just extremely curious as I'm still long way to max my mach upgrade (still academy lvl 7 now). In my mind, the mech will be destroyed by templars and legionairres.

As per topic, I just want to reiterate: This skill suggestion does not increase the HP pool of a troop of mech. Effectively, opponent will be dealing the same amount of damage to a mech troop before their troop can advance to the backline. It will - however - gives dwarf players more assurance that their attack is worth the effort.

I do admit that it will buff dwarf, although I think the buff is pretty minor:
  1. The total amount of damage that mech deals in the battle field will be increased because there are more mech alive in a specific time duration. I don't think it is a major buff since mech damage and attack speed are low. I welcome a damage nerf for mech to get this skill any day.
  2. Gafgar mech heal ability will be more effective, although I'm doubtful how effective it will be knowing how suck that skill currently is

Lastly, all the dwarf counters are still applicable.:)
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:50 am

I think the reason why Krypton is confident with the Mech is because their natural ability to fend off ALL the range attacks by 60%. It's just a huge margin. And any buff could possibly mean a harsh nerf in the future if it exceeds expectation.
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:31 am

Sorry i haven't responded - i have been super busy.

Long story short yes you can break garrisons of players who have equal castle level to you and have stacked garrisons (by which i mean 8+ gold units) as dwarf with a mech front line. The downside is you WILL lose mechs and if a fight goes badly where you lose a whole unit there is a chance your army will rout as the units on the walls target weaker units behind where your mechs were.

The massive fight i had was 7 days ago and the first few battles have gone off my activity log so i can't post screen shots of that.

What i will do is attack some weaker target tonight (i really don't want to lose more mechs) and post screen shots just to show my general strategy - note i might not make the post till tomorrow though as i have a busy evening tonight.
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:03 pm

Ok so i am finally going to make the post - sorry about the long delay - again i have been busy.

This is just a general outline of how i siege as Dwarf, at some point in the future i intend to do a more detailed guide on how i play the race as a whole but i will post that in the guide section.

As i stated in the post above, Dwarf excel at breaking garrisons with Mechs, above and beyond other races, however the balance to this is that if you target a good enough defense you will lose Mechs and this can get very expensive. One important thing to note about breaking a wall is that the first attack is the most painful, this is where you will be facing almost all of their gold units. On the flip side once you have 'broken' this first defense it is rare to have to face any more gold units - only time i have found that can come up is if 2 high level players are sharing garrison defense - if that is the case then i recommend having a minimum of 10 spare Mechs ready to go and as much gold hospital rush time as possible so you can go for another round straight away.

My siege formation:

Image

So 4 front line units of silver mechs, i choose silver mechs because this is when they get the forcefield upgrade which is what makes them such good tanks and that gold Mechs use far too many gold spots which can be better used for Rockets.

Second line directly behind is 4 units of Gold rockets, these guys are insane and the main strength of the whole dwarf army.

Back line is 3 cannons (at the time i did this siege i only had 2 to use as i have been short on mithril for a long time after breaking a very high level garrison a week ago) + all the support heroes i need + some gold rifles that i could just squeeze in. You want to space the cannons so that each one can hit a different part of the wall, once the garrison units on the ground are defeated these cannons are the quickest way that you have of killing wall units.

Heroes i use in this formation:
Jacques - his ability to buff Mechs is great and his spray and pray is useful for helping take down walls.
Grimms - His ammo abilities are what makes the Dwarf army work + his sige abilities help you kill wall units.
Nora - max buffing your rockets and then max her might boosting ability and then ignore her.
Avalon - taking warhorn and humanoid boosts.
Vega - you can generally ignore her UNLESS you wall AI randomly targets your back units before your Mechs in which case SPAM THE FUCK OUT OF FAVOR OF THE SUN GOD AND PRAY TO THAT GOD - also max her saving lives ability as it helps save rockets.
Virion - give him the moral boost claymore - it will almost certainly boost some rockets - and bubble + crusader shield set to max.
Gafgar - he is literally just there to buff the hp of your mechs - do not be fooled into using his Mech heal ability i have tested it and it is rubbish.
Gan - if fight is going long and you are having trouble killing wall units use earthquake on a section - otherwise ignore him.
Mako - i am experimenting with this hero - i think he will do stupid damage when at high level with good items.

Results of this battle:

Image

Image


As you can see this garrison had some high level gold units defending it but it was not fully kited out - i consider losing 4 mechs on this wall break to be worth it - but it is still not an insignificant cost. It does help that i plundered over 100k basic resources in just that attack though :-)

Biggest tips i have for skill order in this formation is:
1. Fire off - this is ALWAYS FIRST - it is op as all hell
2. Depends on situation - sometimes favor of sun god - sometimes spray and pray - sometimes other things
3. Grimes Reload - by the time you hit this you will get full use out of it
4. Maybe earthquake or something similar - honestly by this point fight is often over either way.

Last general tip is that you can attack people up to 3 castles higher then you with this but the higher the disparity the more reserve troops you need - also be prepared to lose you entire army and have to spend over a week replacing it - such is the life we pay as a Dwarf.

Hope this was helpful - like i said i am sorry it is not super in depth - any questions feel free to give me a shout.
Last edited by Kryton13 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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House: 'The Autobots'
Player Name: 'Kryton13'
Race: Dwarf
 
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Re: Suggestion: Dwarf Mechsuit, Mechwalker and Battlemech

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:14 pm

Thanks for your guide. Although I can't see your pictures (none of them show up), i think i understand your setup. I use a very similar setup except that i would mix in some silver tanks to the 2nd line. The issue I often encounter is that sometimes the archers would suddenly focus on my 2nd line blasters when most of the ground troops have been eliminated. Even silver archers could sometimes take out a few blasters before my cannons killed them. Maybe they walked too fast I don't know. Favor of the Sun God surely helps but I tested to put tanks in different places in the 2nd line so that the arrows would get the tankier tanks instead of the meatier blasters. I usually have a few spare silver tanks replacing the dead ones for subsequent sieges.

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