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BorrowKing
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:22 pm

Mechs are actually surprisingly easy to kill. For humans just have 2 rows of horses charge into them and archers clean up, for lich just mass delay them because once the dwarf ranged are out of ammo it's just a field day for the spiders, Rakan monks tear mechs(and all other large units for that matter) into shreds extremely quickly and for dwarf vs dwarf blasters massacre them because they ignore the mech shield. It's just they seem extremely op because they have a huge base health and 60% ranged dmg reduction which practically negates low dmg projectiles like acolytes and xbows who rely on pierce to murder backline and not direct dmg, though archers are massively high dmg troops that can kill mechs extremely fast even with the shield.
 
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Kryton13
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:44 pm

sponkss wrote:
If dwarf would be in a bad spot, why are 90% of the players on new servers including chinese dwarf? I agree that they have a problem with mechs, but looking to how tanky they are as the most tanky unit in the game, that is the price you pay. So i'd say for mechs either keep it or nerf them and make it salvagable or repairable idk.


Dwarf are actually by far the strongest race in the early game.

This discussion has been focused around late game where they are arguably the weakest. I say arguably because Rakan are in a pretty bad spot as well.
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Player Name: 'Kryton13'
Race: Dwarf
 
sponkss
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:38 pm

Kryton13 wrote:
sponkss wrote:
If dwarf would be in a bad spot, why are 90% of the players on new servers including chinese dwarf? I agree that they have a problem with mechs, but looking to how tanky they are as the most tanky unit in the game, that is the price you pay. So i'd say for mechs either keep it or nerf them and make it salvagable or repairable idk.


Dwarf are actually by far the strongest race in the early game.

This discussion has been focused around late game where they are arguably the weakest. I say arguably because Rakan are in a pretty bad spot as well.


The thing with this is that on newer servers, not many time it goes to lategame. 90% of the people quit after a month because the server gets onesided. Theres rarely a competitive server that lasts 2 months nowadays
 
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Sargon
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:36 pm

Permanent death is the worst mechanic in this game and needs to go. It is a curse that instantly makes the afflicted unit trash tier. Nobody can afford to replace level 13 silvers or golds on the regular. Just remove this crap so that dwarves can pvp in peace and lich can experiment with more than 2 units.
 
sippingcider
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:56 pm

I have not made it to that late stage in the game that you are discussing, it sounds like dwarves are at a disadvantage there, but in the early to mid-game dwarves are easily the strongest race. Their units do the best at the void, crush the bosses easily, and their defense is by far the strongest thanks to snipers being about the only unit that can kill a Jacques before he wrecks the wall or sniping gold units before Elena can pull them back. This is one of the pro's/con's of the dwarf race for a while, they are strong in the early game but weak in the late game. So, although I do agree with adjusting dwarves so they stand a chance in the late game, I would also suggest nerfing their early game.
 
Zatarot
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:31 pm

Sargon wrote:
Permanent death is the worst mechanic in this game and needs to go. It is a curse that instantly makes the afflicted unit trash tier. Nobody can afford to replace level 13 silvers or golds on the regular. Just remove this crap so that dwarves can pvp in peace and lich can experiment with more than 2 units.


If they remove permanent death for lich units then any rezzed unit should be treated like a summoned unit and not kept after a battle. Removing perma-death and allowing rezzed unit to be kept would just be a dumb thing to considering how broken that would be.
 
BoKnows
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Umm, guard towers make rare resources way easier to get so permadeath isn't quite as big an issue anymore for anyone but it helps dwarf the most. Some kind of salvage mechanism is probably fair but garrison defenses are all breakable and that's really the main issue. At equal level, an attacker with decent heroes can break all gold defense with bronze so no point in stocking gold mechs on wall and engineers are not as good as spiders but no worse than human front line units for wall if fully researched. Everyone has bad matchups and dwarf lines up well against just about everyone till very late game anyway, at which point you should have built up a huge lead thanks to huge advantage in void and punishing deadeyes that deter attackers. It looks like the next patch is going to let you swap units when you change races so feel free to see what it's like with other races if you really think dwarf is at a disadvantage late game
 
Esquire
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:53 pm

BoKnows wrote:
Umm, guard towers make rare resources way easier to get so permadeath isn't quite as big an issue anymore for anyone but it helps dwarf the most. Some kind of salvage mechanism is probably fair but garrison defenses are all breakable and that's really the main issue. At equal level, an attacker with decent heroes can break all gold defense with bronze so no point in stocking gold mechs on wall and engineers are not as good as spiders but no worse than human front line units for wall if fully researched. Everyone has bad matchups and dwarf lines up well against just about everyone till very late game anyway, at which point you should have built up a huge lead thanks to huge advantage in void and punishing deadeyes that deter attackers. It looks like the next patch is going to let you swap units when you change races so feel free to see what it's like with other races if you really think dwarf is at a disadvantage late game


I am guessing you don't play Dwarf at Castle 40. Maybe share what you do play and what Castle level so we can gain some context around your perspective.

And Guard Towers don't negate a 24k mithril loss, which is the cost if you lose 4 stacks of gold mechs, and that is with reduced RSS researched. It would still take weeks to regain those RSS just to rebuild units that can inevitably be killed again. Suggesting we don't build the only viable frontline is unreasonable and silly. If we utilize the logic "everything can be killed so why build it" then I guess no one should have a gold wall. The point is the permanency of the death is a significant liability at end game when other races don't suffer a similar handicap, and the increased HP doesn't justify the harsh loss mechanic.

Also, how in the world could you say that gold engineers are as good as a human frontline? Because they have high HP? That doesn't matter much when they get destroyed by practically every unit in the game. They have literally one ability, a short stun. They don't take reduced damage from arrows like swords, they don't have morale break immunity like swords. They don't have a hard counter against any unit like spears (scorpions and mechs), they don't have a ranged stun like spears, they can't counter cavalry like spears, they don't have a temporary damage reduction like spears. I mean, do you even know what you are talking about, do you play the game? They are by far the worst unit in the game, and notable only for the fact that they are the only gold unit with no additional ability from their silver subclass.

I could also argue against your comment about deadeyes, but let's just leave it at well researched evade chance + large numerical unit stacks = sniper fail.
Last edited by Esquire on Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Sargon
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:06 pm

Zatarot wrote:
Sargon wrote:
Permanent death is the worst mechanic in this game and needs to go. It is a curse that instantly makes the afflicted unit trash tier. Nobody can afford to replace level 13 silvers or golds on the regular. Just remove this crap so that dwarves can pvp in peace and lich can experiment with more than 2 units.


If they remove permanent death for lich units then any rezzed unit should be treated like a summoned unit and not kept after a battle. Removing perma-death and allowing rezzed unit to be kept would just be a dumb thing to considering how broken that would be.


thats perfectly fine. Lich has one viable unit comp right now because of perma death. They could remove resurrected units as permanent keepers and greatly increase the number of units that mummies res in a fight. Let them res one every 5 seconds or something to keep them useful, since they were mega trash before the permanent res buff, ressing only one unit per battle.
 
Behindtheed
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Re: Dwarves are in a bad spot (truly, this time)

Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:47 pm

sippingcider wrote:
I have not made it to that late stage in the game that you are discussing, it sounds like dwarves are at a disadvantage there, but in the early to mid-game dwarves are easily the strongest race. Their units do the best at the void, crush the bosses easily, and their defense is by far the strongest thanks to snipers being about the only unit that can kill a Jacques before he wrecks the wall or sniping gold units before Elena can pull them back. This is one of the pro's/con's of the dwarf race for a while, they are strong in the early game but weak in the late game. So, although I do agree with adjusting dwarves so they stand a chance in the late game, I would also suggest nerfing their early game.



The advantage of being good vs bosses is sort of laughable. That is maybe relevant for 1 or 2 weeks, and with the loaning mechanic it really doesn't matter at all. (as someone mentioned, good for alts (lol) )

In terms of void, dwarf does well. But some timed ones are much easier to do with human units, unless you are very over leveled. And virion rez can make the flawless ones nearly as easy for humans. Again, with the loan feature for a few extra gold troops, this is only relevant for short periods of time anyways.

For very early game dwarf performs well, until research catches up to terrain bonuses and nobody ever fights off of grassland /desert ever again. Again, this amounts to being a very early game advantage, miners and mechs are made obsolete within months or weeks, depending on the speed of spending on the server. If someone believes otherwise based on previous (now dated) experience, I suggest you consider the patch changes I've highlighted for recently. My experience at early game as a dwarf back in july-august I would agree they had some serious advantages. On characters I've played more recently, not so much.

I have no problem with equalizing early game, maybe helping lich out and taking dwarf down a notch. At the end of the day though, it is a smaller consideration than playability going forward. It's difficult to describe the difference between a human's garrison being hospitalized, or losing a duel on enemy territory, vs dwarf experiencing the same thing. It is a severity of loss out of proportion at almost all points of time in the game that doesn't make sense.
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