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Hiems
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:57 pm

To be honest, there's no much mystery as people say about the human formation. I will not point out everything you said on the commentaries because it's too much (like countering spiders with mana barrier). Centurions was good before, and it was kinda of a must to research if you was ahead on your server, but not because they was good by themselves, but because they was the first gold unit you could get and having a castle lvl 13 with gold units would give a big edge to humans on the early rush. That being said, now that we have centurion, templar, legionnaire, gold archers, priests or even royal hammer all on lvl 4 of academy, there's no good reason to research centurions, simply because they're not as good as ANY other option. As people said above and I don't think there's a need to explain, it's a must to have priests and templars or priests and legionnaires. Centurions counter big units, but they're also countered by big units and will be melted by anything but catapults, swordsman and silver mechs. Even if we had a heroe to boost centurions, they would still not as good as anything else you may choose for you gold cap.

Now, talking about the heroes and your choices, I would like to say that: 1) it's not a must for humans to have natural leader, for other races it can be but not for humans, unless you're using the formation (or a similar one) that Aluminara showed, or don't have extra heroe and sacrificed some archers. 2) you don't need Heal (and for consequence you don't need boosted healing) on Vega simply because it will mess with your rotation, and unless you spent some good amount of ability points on her, it's way better to focus on Favor, some HP for your priests and some points on mana barrier if you're used to use it. 3) talking about Elena, why exactly magic resistance is good against lich? It's as good as against any other race. Scorps and spiders don't deal magic damage and that's pretty much the only thing you will see against a lich that played more than 1 week.

TL;DR
I can't agree with almost anything said on your guide.
 
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Zinek
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:21 pm

MARIVS wrote:
Zinek wrote:
I would disagree. Priests are actually the cornerstone and should be research first this is also nice because you can have two legions of gold priests for 32 supply which you will have even as free to play (no patron bonus) by the time you get castle 13 and research gold priest.

They have mass heal which can be used to top off the frontline after vega ult wears off and you already summoned archers or swordmen. This is how you maintain an army with few losses and allows you to fight weaker enemies without using a vega 5 mana spell to keep your army alive and in mint condition. If you are like me and usually have to fight people.back to badk (usually 5 or more duels in a row) this is critical to survival. After priests I would go with gold swordsmen as my third gold legion and use virion with crusader resurrection again for maintaining survial.

My standard default setup for all situations (I change setup if I know who I'm fighting and what they have like jacques or mass cavalry etc) is this.

My front line is 2 spears 1 swordsmen. The spears are on the flanks and the swords cover the middle they have warriors pride so the midddle will hold long enough for the flanks to encircle the enemy.

Behind the spears are horses followed by archers and horses again. The horses are spread apart so they get more stun time on the front line and the first horse is placed behind the spears so the spears can block enemy spear toss and spear toss the enemy. And the charge kills anything almost due to the 30% damage bonus from spear toss. And with the extra range trait archers will hit the enemy line from where they stand.

Behind the swords I put heroes followed by archers with priests on the flanks of the archers follow e by more heroes in the back.

This setup is 13 legions with room for extra heroes if you buy them. Bane would be a great purchase for this setup as his one downside doesn't affect this setup. If you don't have Avalon buying bane will have you still reach the 13 legions count. It's great. If you don't get bane I would go with Elena as my second choice as with her you buff your whole army except spears.

This is also why spears suck over all they are not stat buffed by a hero like archers swords priests and cavalry are. This may not affect the first 20 castle levels much but when you get to the the end game 32% more health and damage is huge. Spears are almost useless once you get past the early game horse rush noobs.

I hope this helped. If you have any more questions please feel free to message me or continue the discussion here I'm happy to share my thoughts and theory craft.

Hi. I appreciate your help. I will agree that golden priests must be a cornerstone of human army. But upgrading swordsmen and using only one legion of them is doubtful idea for me. Talking about spearmen I hope that in future the developers will add some hero who will improve spearmen. So, for now I leave choosing between spearmen and swordsmen up to players. Also, can you tell me how would you form your army if you confront spearmen-oriented army like mine as it will make your cavalry useless?


You may think that but my cavalry are positioned behind spears or swords depending on what I'm using if I know what you are or not. So if I use my standard of two spears on the flanks in front of the horses then they will eat the spear toss of your spears while tossing at yours as well. Your spears do not counter horse charge while stunned so the first wave goes in on the stunned spears and stuns the second line of spears and the second cavalry charge kills that line and the archers just melt your spears as is anyway since they are not swords with 50% damage reduction. I also open with vega heal or priest heal so as the horse charge into spears I top them back up and the counter is almost moot.
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13293
 
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Sargon
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:23 am

Aluminara wrote:
MARIVS wrote:
What do you mean on "large units do increased damage to spearmen"? I haven't seen such an ability.)


Large units do increased damage to small units. Spearman are small units.

MARIVS wrote:
Talking about spiders, yes, they worried me a lot. I usually counter them by casting mana barrier before they hit my spearmen and spawn troops in the rear. Of course in this situation you also need a bit of luck.)

Mana barrier only stops arrows and spell damage. I know that it does not stop spider spit, but the summon archers in the backline is the best counter to spiders.

MARIVS wrote:
If I've not said clearly I say it again I think that the purpose of spearmen is holding the line and countering, not ordinary damage dealing. Gold spearmen have unique ability "impenetrable defence" so they can survive longer. Together with two other abilities they are strong defensive unit. In this way I try to make up the deficiency of missing health bonus.


Fair enough.


Agree that all of the summon abilities are the best options to handle spiders. There is a little meta game going on here though, since I'll generally look to hit those heros when i firestorm with Jaques. Lich can also just not spend abilities like blizzard on offense, since they really just need to keep their spiders alive to win. I'd think that a massive ball of gold units + the cav strat is the best overall approach since humans best shot at lich is usually to morale boost right over the front line of scorps in the first quarter of the fight.
 
tanhorn
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Sat May 12, 2018 4:23 pm

Sorry for mb stupid question.
How to begin pvp and from which level. I just beginned the game and some players from Japan always attacking me
Upd. already understood )
 
Xcaliboor
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Mon May 14, 2018 10:36 am

Player with tier 5 army giving an advice? Nah,... i'll skip it. BTW, most important skill, Virions resurrection, is not even mentioned. If you want to duel and be good at time challenges, just put 3 gold cavalries in first row, followed by archers and borrowed turtle from your second account. If you want to siege, then use 4 gold swordsmen in first row and 3 catapults in back (archers of course in the middle). Research only archers, infantry and cavalry, rest you can forget. Avalon, Virion, Vega, Elena, Yip, Cleo and Jacques are all heroes that you need (from most te least important).
 
Xcaliboor
Knight
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Mon May 14, 2018 10:45 am

And one thing more - because spearmen do not have a hero to give them bonus, it is even more important not to use them. Always invest in troops with largest bonus! Always! Bonuses always stack: 30% + 30% is not 60% but 69%.
100%+30%= 130% 130%+30%= 169%
 
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MihailCCCP
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Wed May 23, 2018 8:08 pm

From my first hand experience pvp; pve and void.
At one time I had spearmen and swordsmen two packs of each.
Base stats: spearmen /// swordsmen
Health : +++ /// ++
Damage vs Large: ++++ /// ++
Overall damage: ++ /// +++
Morale: + /// ++++

Couple of important important factors:
* Viron's swordsmen mastery: will boost your swords 25% to 32%; now 39% up to 46% on lvl 50;
* Warrior's Pride - they will never run
* Crusader Resurrection : 35 - 40 swords are back as new.

Spearman, they do much more damage against large units, but, oh boy, they do run from spider venom like hell, even golden saints don't help.
So formation spear front line against lich will not work for sure, even if front line of lich is skeletons... What does work against lich: is horseman minimum 4 packs + saints; other formation is swords + monks, turtle is a must in both. monks do very good against scorpions and are immune to poison very important factor.
Now vs dwarfs; it is not working since dwarfs now have front line from human swordsmen. On rocket "fire off" spearmen run away very, very fast.
Even if dwarfs have silver mechs as front line as soon as they use rockets ability your front line is gone...
The only way this works (and works amazing) is vs other human that is focused on horseman.
Against rakan tested only in void but swordsmen did much better since thay don't have large front line...

In the end it does sound good in theory, but is not... In pvp in most of cases spear as front line will run no mater what you do... maybe if you would have mass heal for all saints, but is not... (human with horsemen is exception). With good Viron you have +40 more swords in the middle of the battle and overall damage and line holding is much better; Swordmsmen mastery will cover for less heath and less damage to large units. Your main goal is to keep your front line alive as much as possible so the second line will do the work. In general with humans you chose swords or horse. As horse you go against lich only but make sure that you do have a lot of magic to beat lich player on this stat is a must. Formation is 1st line horsemen then 2nd line saints only and 3rd horsemen and heroes. You must have 4 gold horsemen and as much as possible saints. they will help a lot with healing. With swords you are very good at siege (not like dwarfs, but second best). pvp vs other humans, rakans
 
Jikinoari
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Re: [Guide] Human army PvP tactics

Wed May 30, 2018 9:53 am

I dont want to break your all hearths but:
late game heroes and stats on them are everything. You can say about setup and so in ealy mid game but late game who won on stats win the fight.
But from the begginign.
When i started playing AoC long time ago there was perfect setup for pvp that always works and it was :
1 line: pickers swords swords pickers (or 4x swords)
2 line : archers priest archers priest archers
3 line : cavlary 4x heroes cavlary
4 line: 2x heroes 2x cavlary 2x heroes
But now late game 8 heroes is not enought. Last week on our server top 2 whalse (2,5M power +) fight each other, what setup they used ?
front line (swords or monks), 2nd line (archers or blaster) and .... (w8 for it) one use 21 heroes (so all of them) and 2nd use 20 heroes setup.
[the one with 21 heroes won], you may ask why ? Answer is simple +30% hp, +30% dmg -30% dmg to him. His units because of wining stats was just much more poverfull. And thats how late game looks like now.

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