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shyke
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:09 pm

Shu wrote:
dorianGREY wrote:
just seems the only logical way to beat it - a wild assumption only.

How far have you been as a Lich?



I'm up to 59 as lich c21 with vast majority perfected not a lot of the timed ones as I don't have the burst damage but its not that difficult the top people on 100 are lich with the exception to a human whale just borrow a golden turtle and more spiders its really not that difficult, sure the timed ones are rather difficult for lich but whatever you can perfect everything else so easily its a joke even a couple of the timed ones i'm literally 1-3 seconds off i'll get them when i go up a tier in units if anything I feel sort of bad for f2p humans some of the stages look so nasty for them i couldn't imagine progressing through a few of them using vega every day as a crutch.

To be honest I really like the borrowing it adds a little bit of thinking to what you want to bring to perfect a couple stages each day much better than mindlessly bashing your head against it with your own army. Well that is till you find out gold turtle is insane its basically turtle + 2 of whatever you want.
 
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Shu
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:14 am

shyke wrote:
I'm up to 59 as lich c21 with vast majority perfected not a lot of the timed ones as I don't have the burst damage but its not that difficult the top people on 100 are lich with the exception to a human whale just borrow a golden turtle and more spiders its really not that difficult, sure the timed ones are rather difficult for lich but whatever you can perfect everything else so easily its a joke even a couple of the timed ones i'm literally 1-3 seconds off i'll get them when i go up a tier in units if anything I feel sort of bad for f2p humans some of the stages look so nasty for them i couldn't imagine progressing through a few of them using vega every day as a crutch.

To be honest I really like the borrowing it adds a little bit of thinking to what you want to bring to perfect a couple stages each day much better than mindlessly bashing your head against it with your own army. Well that is till you find out gold turtle is insane its basically turtle + 2 of whatever you want.


First of all, I don't think the goal of this post is to aim for top 100.

The majority of the challenges are timer challenge if you haven't notice. Spider abilities are built to withstand longer fights(slow/creating mobs) and not for a timer challenge. I'm at stage 79, perfected a lot of stages and I don't think borrowing should be the measurement of difficulty of all the stages. One of the f2p human got 79 first before me, what are you talking about? This patch is so easy for humanoids.

Perfecting higher stages specially the 15 seconds one always took me at 16 seconds, it took me a lot of tries to perfect them just to hit 15 sec. That must be wonderful of you to assume that some of the players are just mindlessly bashing their head against their own army, also pin-pointing me? You're an interesting person for a player who has only reached 59. Maybe you should check your head first?

Like I said on my other post, borrowing is to support the player, to make the fights easy. It can stay or it can leave, I hardly care, I just gave my opinion on that. My main concern from the very start is the balance of the challenges for the races the player is playing. Because changing races and training another batch of T11~T13 Gold units are not easy, specially if the resources are scarce in late game since there's nothing more to loot but dailies and extremely strong players.
 
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shyke
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:23 am

Sure timed stages are incredibly annoying as lich but honestly its just nit picking at this time I know first hand that timed stages are really annoying for lich but you can do them, other races have issues with different stages and generally have more attrition especially for the 2 hero only or no casualty stages. Borrowing is just a way for you to target what you really want to do to help yourself clear certain stages its a tactical choice, besides the void is meant to be progressed through not just something you blast away within days of it being launched just relax and wait till you get more of the new items for your heroes it should help a ton. It's only what day 5 after the patch or something? Give it time the void gives a lot of items/exp for heroes wait till you get some of them because i know for a fact if I had a couple more of the new items the stages that give me issues as lich would not be as bad if you can help nuke them down with abilities.
 
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Shu
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:48 am

shyke wrote:
Sure timed stages are incredibly annoying as lich but honestly its just nit picking at this time I know first hand that timed stages are really annoying for lich but you can do them, other races have issues with different stages and generally have more attrition especially for the 2 hero only or no casualty stages. Borrowing is just a way for you to target what you really want to do to help yourself clear certain stages its a tactical choice, besides the void is meant to be progressed through not just something you blast away within days of it being launched just relax and wait till you get more of the new items for your heroes it should help a ton. It's only what day 5 after the patch or something? Give it time the void gives a lot of items/exp for heroes wait till you get some of them because i know for a fact if I had a couple more of the new items the stages that give me issues as lich would not be as bad if you can help nuke them down with abilities.


Well, that's why I reached 79 right? I'm not the only one, there's a bunch actually. I don't know how telling me to nuke them down with abilities will help people perfect time challenges in high level as a Lich. You think people aren't using any skills?

We're not saying to remove the borrow now or we quit. So there's no need to tell us to relax as we already are and are just throwing out our opinions here regarding the topic. This is just a suggestion after all. Also, if they remove it then they need to re-balance the challenges and stages, so it will take some work time before it becomes feasible.

Not all the time a player has a chance to borrow GOOD units from a house(FYI I'm not saying myself). Since we're able to borrow, how about those who can't? And you think you can finish timer challenge at a mid-high level without borrowing as Lich? That's why I'm saying they shouldn't set the standard of the stages/challenges based on the borrowing mechanic.
 
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:47 am

Yeah I know you are using abilities I never have said otherwise the stats from the new gear is vastly superior to the old gear and the stat scalings on heroes is insane I'm saying wait for more items so the abilities have more of an impact than they currently do. Hell the first tier purple items are at a bare minimum twice as good as the rad/epics you get that don't give +skills to something like sword summon. Just wait to see how it is when your heroes are properly geared for the tier, keep in mind stage 50+ gives divine items pretty sure they intend for your heroes to have at the very least legendary in a few slots at the bare minimum considering how much crystals for the core you get everyday. As I said its designed to be progressed through and get item upgrades fairly regularly there has been in no way enough time for you to catch up in gear for heroes since the patch has released, if you progressed it through naturally from the server start when it becomes available its probably a very very different experience than what you are doing currently. That's why I'm saying just give it time because you aren't experiencing it in the way they intended it to be because you are already progressed very far into the game. Don't mistake my words for personal attacks because they are not if it came across that way my bad not my intent but you have to understand the effects of stat scaling on heroes and the huge jump in stats the new gear gives especially when just the purple gear that you craft alone has double the stats of everything else plus the set bonuses that I doubt anybody has really used there also.

PS its late if i repeated myself well I'll just blame it on being tired
 
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:23 am

shyke wrote:
Yeah I know you are using abilities I never have said otherwise the stats from the new gear is vastly superior to the old gear and the stat scalings on heroes is insane I'm saying wait for more items so the abilities have more of an impact than they currently do. Hell the first tier purple items are at a bare minimum twice as good as the rad/epics you get that don't give +skills to something like sword summon. Just wait to see how it is when your heroes are properly geared for the tier, keep in mind stage 50+ gives divine items pretty sure they intend for your heroes to have at the very least legendary in a few slots at the bare minimum considering how much crystals for the core you get everyday. As I said its designed to be progressed through and get item upgrades fairly regularly there has been in no way enough time for you to catch up in gear for heroes since the patch has released, if you progressed it through naturally from the server start when it becomes available its probably a very very different experience than what you are doing currently. That's why I'm saying just give it time because you aren't experiencing it in the way they intended it to be because you are already progressed very far into the game. Don't mistake my words for personal attacks because they are not if it came across that way my bad not my intent but you have to understand the effects of stat scaling on heroes and the huge jump in stats the new gear gives especially when just the purple gear that you craft alone has double the stats of everything else plus the set bonuses that I doubt anybody has really used there also.

PS its late if i repeated myself well I'll just blame it on being tired

We're not talking about stats and gear you just brought that up, you think stat boost is enough to fix Spider's broken AI and their purpose to sustain long fights? I know it gives a certain advantage but I think you're just using it as an excuse since we all know it's not enough specially for a timer challenge. So, you're saying you've crafted those Divine items and have proven to be enough to finish timer/higher challenge as a Lich? Do you mind sharing a video?

For the second time, no one is saying to remove the borrow now or we quit. We ARE giving it time. No one here is trying to rush things. Oh don't worry, I'm not taking your words as a personal attack or anything. I'm sure you have your opinion as well. But if you're jumping conclusion from Gold Turtle to Item Stats then I don't know what to say to you next.

Just see this as a formal debate and I'm sure you'll invest less emotion to our discussion. We're all good here.
 
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:13 am

The answer isnt always spiders there are other units available to lich sure the spiders are staple for many reasons and yes their ai is atrocious i wont lie but ive honestly cut spiders from the line and used t9 bronze acolytes that i got from mummy cheesing pve camps and it performed better than spiders. Fiddle around with skellies sure they get bad reputations but the unit themselves are pretty good i was suprised when the acolytes did that much better than spiders did but then again i rarely use them other than for pillaging. And no i dont have any divine items im waiting to see how big of an impact they bring but even before that i know for a fact magic stacked vega is insane plus getting command 30 on both avalon and virion is vital. Just experiment with skellies the main drawback of them is death but everyday you can go in there and maybe thats the change you need from spiders to push you into the perfect you need... potentially, anyways i know every lich and their mother runs scorp spider but maybe scorp warlock/occultist is what is needed not the spiders.

And hell maybe the answer is gold spiders behind occultists with heroes tanking who knows can only experiment with so many combos every week
 
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Shu
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:02 pm

shyke wrote:
The answer isnt always spiders there are other units available to lich sure the spiders are staple for many reasons and yes their ai is atrocious i wont lie but ive honestly cut spiders from the line and used t9 bronze acolytes that i got from mummy cheesing pve camps and it performed better than spiders. Fiddle around with skellies sure they get bad reputations but the unit themselves are pretty good i was suprised when the acolytes did that much better than spiders did but then again i rarely use them other than for pillaging. And no i dont have any divine items im waiting to see how big of an impact they bring but even before that i know for a fact magic stacked vega is insane plus getting command 30 on both avalon and virion is vital. Just experiment with skellies the main drawback of them is death but everyday you can go in there and maybe thats the change you need from spiders to push you into the perfect you need... potentially, anyways i know every lich and their mother runs scorp spider but maybe scorp warlock/occultist is what is needed not the spiders.

And hell maybe the answer is gold spiders behind occultists with heroes tanking who knows can only experiment with so many combos every week

It seems that you haven't been paying attention to your own race to say that there are other units aside from Spiders. No other units does a faster job at killing aside from Spiders and all other units of Lich has no morale increase to speed things up even if you apply Lv6 War Horn from Avalon, the speed is still not enough I tested it.

Let's not go to Acolytes they hit fast but there's not enough burst damage to do it faster and their movement speed is like moving through molasses, you expect them to reach through the backline under 15 seconds? Dude, you're giving me advice to use T9 Bronze Acolytes, I normally keep T11 Silver Occulists for my looting and I've tested them, so let's not go there.

All the skeletons walk, and to tell me to experiment on a 15 sec timer is a pure joke. And stacking magic to Vega is the last thing you would do if you're after faster kills as a Lich player. I'm stacking magic on my Cleo and I know how to use her magic(in-case you try to teach those little steps again) and it's still not enough.

See what I mean, you keep saying things but you haven't tested it, stop giving blind advice. Wait, you mentioned heroes tanking? Are you seriously going to give morale boost by sending your heroes to the front and if they die, you can't cure them for the next 20 hours? I can't believe you're at 59 with that kind of thinking. It seems that you haven't encounter the Gold Horse Archers at 50~59, they would rip through any of your heroes like paper. I think you're just keeping this conversation up to scoop some advice, let me know if you need some, you can ask directly.

Please stop jumping from one conclusion to the other, Gold Turtles, Item Stats, now Skeletons? What's next? This is quite amusing to be honest.
 
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dablu
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:09 pm

-1.
I think number of borrowed units has to be increased up to 5 or 6. It's just 3 now.
AOC is completely cooperative game, and borrowing is one of greatest features.
AoC tools http://aoc.gold - calculators and army formation builder
 
Hisoka
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Re: [Suggest] Remove Borrowing in Void Mirror

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:31 pm

-1 some of these levels would be impossible without borrowing other race units(switxhing races to make same unit doesnt help as no rssearch buff from said units) if u want it done this way then make the lvls 50% easier and sure

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