For attacking city, yes Scipio 3rd skill gives damage bonus for attacking city, and Scipio can have mixed talent of Attack/Leadership/Conquering. For group battle, Joan 1st skill affect friendlies troops which is good, and we can use Joan for gathering. So, I want to limit the discussion about the advantage of using these 2 commanders on pvp battle/wild battle (as 1st commander), battle until one of the side is defeated/no retreat.
I want to compare Scipio and Joan with other Epic commanders: Pelagius, Boudica, Eulji, Hermann.
(I'm excluding Lohar. Also excluding Sun Tzu and Kusunoki since they have AoE skill damage, but feel free if you want to also discuss them).
Then, we are comparing when these commanders already having skill maxed (5 5 5 5) but we can also discuss the difference of these commanders with or without the expertise/5th skill unlocked.
Whats the indicator if a commander is good or not? I'm thinking about those number in battle log (Time until victory, number of: severely Wounded, healed, slightly wounded, and remaining troops).
Scipio's 1st and 2nd skill, and Joan 1st and 4th seems amazing, but I'm thinking that skills from other Nuker commanders are more useful.
Isn't the point of the battle: to do as high damage as possible, receive minimum damage, keep the number of troops high (healing the troops)?
Scipio's 1st skill is for 5 secs, BUT it only gives counterattack bonus. In pvp battle, each turn we only do counterattack once. Scipio has healing on the 2nd skill, BUT it started only when troops has been reduced to less than 40%. Scipio's 4th skill, 10% troops capacity, good but overtime this advantage could fade away.
Joan's 1st, 3rd, 4th skill, all seems good, but I'm still thinking Nuker commanders is still doing better.
If we check the battle log, Nuker commanders's first skill gives very high damage! The damage way surpass the benefit from Scipio's and Joan's skills.
- Pelagius: direct damage total 900 (300+2*300) + rage restored 100.
- Boudica: direct damage 600 + attack reduction 25% + rage reduction 100.
- Eulji: direct damage 750 + defense reduction 30%.
- Hermann: direct damage 750 + rage reduction 100 + silence 2 secs (postpone opponent's active skill).
They will also cast the active skill more often, and more in total compared to Scipio and Joan.
Then, Pelagius has very good healing skill (450 factor-same as Scipio and Joan), but his if triggered will be casted twice + nice 10% cav atk and def buff. Boudica also has good healing (400) + normal attack bonus damage. Eulji: 10% infantry atk and def buff + normal attack bonus damage. Hermann: 10% archer atk and march speed buff + normal attack bonus damage.
I haven't checked the real damage of all these commanders on pvp battle, but I have checked their real damage on barbarian (barbarian level 25, with troops attacking them is 140K troops mixed tier 4 and 3, balance number on infantry, cav, archer, no siege). So, Pelagius's damage is normally around 1596 (532*3), and when certain talent triggered can reach as high as 2790 (930*3)! Boudica around 1609-2015 (but yes she has bonus damage to barbarian). Eulji around 1208-1304. Hermann around 1288.
Scipio's and Joan's total real damage is smaller (i.e. if we count the total attack and counterattack difference after certain skill is triggered), since the original attack and counterattack damage on each turn is smaller compared to the direct damage factor. For pvp battle with 140k troops, on each turn attack vs counterattack is around 550-600.
On that test with barbarian, Scipio and Joan also completed victory with the longest time, highest severely and slightly wounded, and lowest remaining troops (compared to the other 4 commanders). I have another account which Pelagius is on 5 1 5 3 and Scipio on 5 5 3 1, and Pelagius still doing better compared to Scipio (with those same indicators on the battle log).
Also as I have said, isn't the point of the battle: to do as high damage as possible, receive minimum damage, keep the number of troops high (healing the troops)?
If we can do high damage since beginning, we will reduce the number of enemy troops, which automatically also reduce their attack and counterattack on each turn. And with healing our troops, we keep our troops high compared to our opponent which also will keep our attack and counterattack high too. Say, if we use Scipio fighting opponent with legendary commander we will suffer more since legendary commander has higher direct damage factor (such as Minamoto 1400+chance of 2*600, Cao cao 1400, El cid 1000, etc).
So, what do you guys think? You could try to test them by yourself. Test them for battle with only 1 commander (no 2nd commander), or if you want to use 2 commanders, use 1st commander which has fixed-triggered skill (avoid skill which has trigger chance). Also make sure the commanders you are comparing are around the same range of level, having their skills maxed, and using the same configuration for the troops and opponent troops. (Keep in mind player have different troops buff from research and alliance research+holy sites, and type of civilization).